A conversation between two generations: on career paths, science diplomacy and Europe's future

Interview: Astrid Tomczak-Plewka

We are here at the conference of the European National Young Academies (ENYA), which is dedicated to the topic of science diplomacy. Science diplomacy is not only about international cooperation, but also about the role of science in an increasingly fragmented world. Mr Flückiger, why is science diplomacy so important right now?

Yves Flückiger: Developments in recent years - such as the Covid pandemic and geopolitical tensions - clearly show that our societies are facing major challenges. Science can help develop solutions and provide fact-based support for political decisions. I think the role of science in the dialogue with society, politics and diplomacy has become more visible today than ever before. I find it particularly striking that many young researchers have a strong need to actively participate in solution processes. That's a glimmer of hope.

Mr Müller, do you share this assessment?

Lucas Müller: Yes, I have a similar view. Precisely because science has a universal claim, it is important that it networks globally and brings together different perspectives. Here, it's not just a matter of scientific exchange, but also of contributing to global governance. However, political and economic realities vary from region to region. So together we need to explore the tension between their universal aspirations and the political reality.

So does the international orientation of science per se helps towards understanding?

Yves Flückiger: I certainly think it is. Today, science is more collaborative and international than ever before. This openness promotes understanding between countries and cultures. At the same time, I realise that younger scientists in particular find it difficult to speak out publicly - for example on climate issues or controversial topics. They're afraid that this could have a negative impact on their career. This is a real area of tension.

Lucas Müller: Not necessarily. Many young scientists have international Cv careers. They study in one country, do their doctorate in another and are involved in international projects. However, when they then want to act in a national context, they encounter obstacles because they are not established locally or do not understand the local political system. At the same time, however, there is a strong need for public activism in the face of climate change or social injustice.

Do you also feel this restraint in yourself?

Lucas Müller: Not so much for me personally, but I see colleagues who deliberately keep a low profile - for fear of causing controversy or because they don't want to jeopardise their career. Polarisation in many societies is reinforcing this trend. This also raises the question of what protection institutions offer when researchers are attacked.

Yves Flückiger: I remember my own experience with sensitive labour market policy studies. It was often not the methodology that was criticised, but the result - if it did not fit in with the political world view. This shows how important it is to distinguish between scientific statements and political interpretation. At the same time, researchers need institutional protection so that they can express themselves freely.

Another issue that affects many young researchers is the difficult situation in mid-level positions. Mr Müller, what do you think are the biggest problems?

Lucas Müller: The main problem is that the career pyramid in academia is very broad at the base and extremely narrow at the top - and selection for permanent positions takes place far too late - often not until the mid-40s. Until then, many people have to work their way through fixed-term contracts. That costs a lot of energy, for example in making applications or acquiring third-party funding. This inefficiency is systemic. It would make more sense to decide earlier on whether someone is suitable for a permanent position. That would make it possible to become established locally and politically instead of just moving around.

What does this mean for the places where universities are located?

Lucas Müller: They lose a lot of informal knowledge because young researchers are not involved in the university and local civic society. People who have no prospects won't invest in local networks.

I remember that we talked about this very topic a few years ago. Hasn't the situation improved?

Lucas Müller: If anything, it's become more intense. Budget cuts at federal and cantonal level, for example in Fribourg and Geneva, are increasing the pressure even more. And instead of investing across the board in good working conditions for good science, individual flagship projects such as chairs of excellence are being created, which is a disastrous signal for young scientists.

Yves Flückiger: When I was still Rector at the University of Geneva, we tried to systematically consider how young academics could be supported more effectively. But it wasn’t an easy undertaking - our programme in Geneva has cost a total of almost six million francs, a budget increase that has been spread over three years. At the national level, I have the impression that in many places there is a lack of willingness to tackle real change.

What do you say to students who are wondering whether an academic career is worthwhile at all?

Lucas Müller: I tell them: if you feel a genuine inner need, then do it. But not on a whim or because no other option seems available. Many very talented people are now deciding against an academic careeer, and that is a great loss for the institutions.

Yves Flückiger: Doctoral students need good working conditions, trust and proper supervision. One supervisor should not supervise 20 dissertations at the same time. That's irresponsible.

Are professors even trained in leadership?

Yves Flückiger: No. Most of them have no management training. They are excellent researchers, but not necessarily competent managers. It would be preferable to avoid an increase in precarious positions for research assistants and doctoral students (with very small workloads or poor pay). Instead, the focus should be on the quality of supervision and appropriate working conditions for doctoral students.

Lucas Müller: Often that's not the case. In addition, this very hierarchical system fosters conflicts of interest, and many professors have made their careers in this very system.

Yves Flückiger: Yes, many argue that they also had to assert themselves. But the competition for jobs is much greater today than it used to be.

Is there hope for change through a new generation?

Lucas Müller: I'm sceptical. The academic system is highly selective and many talented people are lost early on. This has long-term consequences for the system’s capacity to reform, but also for its general innovative strength.

What needs to happen?

Lucas Müller: We could think about new models, such as professorships without permanent assistantships, and instead more permanent positions that share teaching and administrative tasks more effectively. But that requires political will.

When it comes to the connection to politics, the Academies in particular are in demand. What role can they play?

Yves Flückiger: An important one. As Academies, we speak for the entire system and the people involved in it, unlike Swiss universities, which combine institutions. For example, we could work with a group to develop a white paper on what an ideal university and career might look like. Up to now, there has been no common vision. I am grateful that with the Swiss Young Academy we have a platform that can contribute ideas.

Lucas Müller: Exactly, in recent years we have collected many ideas. Now it's time to bundle them together into a vision, even if it's an uncomfortable one.

In conclusion: If you two could start a joint project that combines international cooperation and equitable career paths - what would it look like?

Lucas Müller: Science is internationalised, but financed nationally. This gives rise to tensions that are also reflected in the attacks on science in many countries. We need to think fundamentally about the role of science between global aspirations and national responsibility.

Yves Flückiger: I would propose a project that strengthens the European context and emphasises common values. The Academies could play a central role thanks to their cross-institutional orientation. Unfortunately, I often see how strongly thinking is anchored in institutional silos. But collaboration is crucial, especially in times of crisis.

Lucas Müller: Exactly, that's how science could also become a model in times of crisis.

About the dialogue partners:

Yves Flückiger is President of the Swiss Academies of Arts and Sciences, a+. Prior to this appointment, he was Rector of the University of Geneva.

Lucas Müller is a member of the Swiss Young Academy and its second speaker from June 2021 to June 2022. He is Senior Research Associate at the Institute of Geography and the Environment of the University of Geneva.